I love that he says this and all but is he just - not gonna acknowledge the fact that he did bail on Matt? Twice? Like, regardless of how Matt contributed to their conflict, and regardless of the fact that Foggy came back, Foggy did make the choice to leave Matt in both Seasons 1 and 2. And it pretty clearly wrecked Matt.
Just *sigh* I wish Foggy would make these emphatic “I’m never gonna leave you” statements to Matt, instead of about him, and I wish those statements would come with apologies for how he’s hurt Matt.
But Foggy is Trying, I will give him that.
Yes, yes, yes to all these points!
I’m torn about how I feel about Foggy leaving in season 1. On one hand, I don’t think anyone needs to stay in a situation that is harmful to themselves. It’s always okay to put yourself first. Foggy needing space isn’t necessarily the bad part, but the way he left was pretty terrible. He never said he needed space and would come back later to talk it out more. He weaponized leaving and he HAD to know that would hurt Matt.
Foggy leaving in season 2 is much worse than season 1. He gets no slack from me here. When Matt and Foggy are fighting in the bathroom about Elektra and Foggy doesn’t listen to Matt and then tries to leave and Matt panics and gets aggressive. Ugh. I hate that scene so much - they’re both at their worst here. Not only is it painful to watch, but Elektra could be considered a stalker at this point with her behavior and she’s absolutely emotionally abusive. Foggy would just leave Matt in that situation without talking about it? That had to have reinforced Matt’s choices to get closer with Elektra and continue working with her. That’s how emotionally manipulative people behave and they use that to separate you from other loved ones.
Then at the end of the season, Foggy goes his own way and the part that irks me is that he goes months without talking to Matt who literally has no one else in his life. I’m piecing this together from context clues in The Defenders. There’s not a lot of indication of whether or not Matt tried to reach out to Foggy or maybe he felt he needed to give him space. We do know that Foggy knew Matt was grieving Elektra and Foggy was definitely keeping in touch with Karen.
Thinking of Matt being alone those months is why I think he was okay dying beneath Midland Circle. I would say his suicidal tendencies in season 3 can point back here too, more than the loss of his senses. Yeah, Foggy brought the suit for Matt but he doesn’t spend time with him and he always threatened leaving when Matt behaved in ways Foggy didn’t approve.
I think Foggy figured some of that out when Matt was “dead” and that’s why he was having nightmares and going through an existential crisis, in season 3. I really do wish we had more time to see them reconcile more and actually grow a bit. There is something worthwhile that they always make it back to each other.
Yes to all of the above! ^
And I do wanna highlight how important it is to not stay in a relationship that’s hurting you. In that regard, I’m actually more sympathetic towards Karen’s resistance to letting Matt back into her life. Foggy had a stronger relationship (10+ years) prior to learning about Matt’s identity, as opposed to Karen. Also, Karen made it clear that she knew Matt was keeping secrets and went out of her way to invite him to talk about it - unlike Foggy who, as far as we can tell from canon, never picked up on Matt’s secrets? Or never made it clear that he was open to hearing whatever Matt wasn’t telling him?
And I kinda don’t appreciate Maggie pressuring Karen into reaching out to Matt. I think that was Maggie just telling Karen what she wished someone would’ve told her, but the fact is, Maggie and Karen aren’t in the same boat. Maggie hurt Matt; Karen was hurt by Matt. I wish anyone (Maggie or Foggy) had acknowledged that Karen should prioritize her own wellbeing.
But Matt’s the protagonist, so… *shrug*
To be fair, in terms of staying in a relationship that’s hurting you…yes, Foggy is clearly stressed by Matt’s whole lifestyle as Daredevil. But in my opinion, Foggy needs to figure out what his lines are and then stick to them, instead of going back and forth with Matt with unclear boundaries, where it seems that the main predictor of whether they’ll have conflict is whether Foggy’s emotions boil over on that particular day. (Like, it can’t just be that Foggy is generally scared of Matt dying, and then when Matt gets more injured suddenly Foggy’s really scared and then he’s yelling at Matt or threatening to leave him. No, Foggy needs to take responsibility for his own emotional state.) Foggy can either be friends with both-Matt-and-Daredevil, or he can’t. If he can, the burden can’t be entirely on Matt to keep Foggy from freaking out;. Again, Foggy has to take responsibility for his own emotional state.
Anyway. I have a thousand thoughts on these nuanced relationships (hence writing a crazy number of fics about them) and could ramble on forever, so I’ll stop here. (For now, haha.)
Oooo, I want to play Daredevil’s advocate again if you don’t mind.
Let me preface this by 100% agreeing that always get out of unhealthy relationships and take care of yourself.
BUT I don’t think Matt did anything to Karen that she didn’t also do in her own way to Matt. For example, Matt was off running around with Elektra and might have been emotionally cheating on Karen. He should have said his ex was in town and maybe some vague context. Because Matt really needed to process his history with Elektra.
Meanwhile, Karen is also doing the same thing with Frank Castle. I think normal, not overloaded Matt would be extraordinarily jealous if he was able to pay attention. He seems like the jealous type. Matt is also more likely to let people hurt him because he would rather be with toxic people than be alone. So I don’t think we as viewers get a really objective view of these events. He immediately forgave Elektra for her deception (working with Stick) because at that point, she was all he had left.
So when we get to season 3 and everyone is encouraging Karen to help Matt, I feel like she is only really hurt that Matt didn’t reach out to her to say he was alive. This is the Matt who was suicidal - he likely gave those efforts up because he was hyperfocused om catching Fisk. Those feelings don’t just go away. I really wish we got a fourth season. That baggage would come crashing back when Fisk was removed.
From Matt’s POV, Karen ghosted him for months after the Daredevil reveal. Then when they start working things out, she really pushed him to be someone he’s not and had zero tolerance for the Daredevil side of his life. Karen would not be someone I reached out to at my lowest point in life. Matt also only wanted to be Daredevil and probably felt Karen wouldn’t want to be a part of whatever life he was capable of living.
The things I wish Karen didn’t do were pay Matt’s bills while he was “dead”. That apartment must be $2000/mo. minimum even with the discount from the billboard. Then add utilities. Karen’s apartment alone is probably $3000-$3500 based on the size and location, assuming she lives in any part of Manhattan. She does not make that much money. There is no conceivable way she could afford to do what she did for months. This drives me wild everytime.
Although I find that annoying, I think Matt did eventually go to her for help because he realized she was taking care of his place for him.
For Foggy, I think he’s led such a privileged life that he has to keep changing what he can or cannot accept. Matt has been living with a lot more insight into corruption and danger his entire life. Foggy has all these boundaries until he personally experiences a situation he didn’t foresee and then he pivots. He genuinely does not expect Fisk to order a hit on an elderly woman to meet his agenda. There are so many more moments where Foggy flips his stance because he’s learned a harsh new reality he couldn’t predict. It’s completely accurate to say he needs to take responsibility for his emotions and reactions, but I think he really doesn’t know how to do that. It’s so much easier to take his frustration out on Matt.
I think the takeaway is that they all need a lot of therapy.
Yay, I love a devil's advocate!
And tbh I agree with you, I think! I should clarify my objection (to the characters of Foggy and Maggie, and to the writers): I don't think Karen is more hurt by Matt than he is by her. I simply think that, regardless of whether her hurt was justified or excused, no one ever discussed it. They just insisted that she had to accept Matt again. I find that advice very dangerous. (Advice I have taken before, and it cost me dearly.) Foggy and Maggie should have listened to Karen explain why she doesn't want to accept Matt, ask clarifying questions, and go from there to figure out a solution that takes BOTH her AND Matt's feelings into account - instead of guilt tripping her to do what they both failed to do (in my view, at least).
Yeah, this is why it still bothers me that there wasn't really a discussion about this at the end of season 3. I'm also usually not a fan of forgiving everything and accepting destructive behaviour. I had a friend once who lived with me for several months in a tiny apartment. He needed to get his life together, but eventually I also needed to acknowledge that I had my own stuff to deal with and I didn't even see him make progress. He even managed to get himself in more trouble... So, he had to leave, he accepted that and he even took some money without my knowledge. I wasn't mad about it. I haven't heard from him, but I hope he's alright. He really was a good guy, he just had some issues that I couldn't help him with. I don't think therapy would have been an option for him, but he needed it badly.
So, yeah, I think you have to take care of yourself, also. But we have to remember that we never really got the story from Foggy's or Karen's perspective. We have our theories why they behave the way they do, but a lot of things aren't addressed on the show. And especially Matt's suicidal tendencies could have been dealt with eventually. I don't really want to blame Foggy or Karen for distancing themselves, I just wanted them to acknowledge that they hurt Matt, too. That they left him completely alone. I think we might have seen something like that in season 4. With Karen and Foggy sticking with Matt, no matter what he gets himself tangled up in, to make up for that.